Specifically Marilyn Manson and Kanye West. Am I overthinking this?
I listen to Die Antwoord still and read the poetry of Anne Sexton. The former is because I think some of the accusations against them are exaggerated, and part of their whole act IS being jerks. The latter is because what she did was clearly in the throes of her severe bipolar disorder which was long before they had any good medications.
Okay Die Antwood is interesting to me. I listen to a lot of obscure indie bands from South Africa. I have a few South African compilation CD’s. One track on one of those CD’s was Be Kind to Animals by Max Normal. I had some coworker reccommend Die Antwood because I said I liked South African music. I was reading about Die Antwood only to realize they’re the same artist. I couldn’t believe some obscure track on some 2001 compilation CD turned out to be by one of the biggest South African artists. Yeah the dude is a real asshole from what I’ve read.
Apparently South Africans are NOT fans of the band despite their success. I think what Tokkie claims about them sounds made up, apparently he’s an addict and trying to extort them is their take on it. It just doesn’t sound truthful at all.
Yeah I can’t imagine South Africans appreciating Ninja daying racism is a thing of the past or whatever he said. What was Tokkie claiming exactly? I remember someone claiming they were harassed by Ninja, is that what you’re refrencing? I remember reading about it it but don’t remember the exact specifics. Disclaimer, I am not South African so I don’t claim to speak for them.
Tokkie claims he was sexually and physically abused by them and made into a slave. None of the sources seem very well sourced, it’s just based on a video he made, and they state that he’s an addict and trying to extort them for drug money. Capetown child welfare workers went to their house to see if their daughter Sixteen is ok, and apparently had no problems with them. I take abuse seriously but what he’s saying seems super farfetched and made up. I don’t think they’re great people exactly, but their characters are obviously an act and they’re middle aged parents under it all.
Yep! And yes, you are overthinking it. If you are worried about them profiting from you, then just pirate their stuff.
Sometimes it can be difficult to separate the art from the artist, particularly when the artist in question is especially vile.
Just pirate their music. Don’t stream it, don’t go to their concerts, don’t buy and wear their merch. As long as you’re not financially contributing to them then I don’t think there’s any issue.
It also, like CaptainPedantic said, matters what they’re singing about. If the artist has shitty views but doesn’t present them in their music that’s one thing but there’s no ethical way to listen to something called Heil Hitler.
Sometimes it can be difficult to separate the art from the artist, particularly when the artist in question is especially vile.
I often bring up Death of the Artist, but with books and music I have an especially hard time. Authors, in particular, struggle to keep their works views and politics out of their books; the same is true with musicians, perhaps to a lesser extent.
It does make me worry about the subconscious influences of listening or reading them.
I think that if “death of the artist” was applicable to any piece of art, then the art would therefore be the equivalent of AI art.
Art by it’s very nature is influenced by someone’s views and beliefs.
The only possible exception is that some artists may drastically change their views later and even denounce previous work.
Edit: I also think it’s worth pointing out that you can like the way someone represents/expresses their viewpoints even if you disagree with said viewpoints, you just have to be aware of the viewpoints presence and potential effects.
I agree; I do think, especially with fiction and reading for leisure, that it’s easy to forget about the author’s beliefs. And often they’re expressed subtly, and… well, when I first read Ender’s Game, I had no idea who OSC was, much less his religious and political beliefs.
Reading Ayn Rand is easy: her writing is unapologetically blatant; it’s like reading those Christian comics where all of the Evil Characters are drawn so over-the-top that there’s no question. But I know my political beliefs today were influenced by my reading as a youth, and I know that I had no idea I was ingesting and being influenced by it at the time.
I think there’s a Dunning-Kruger effect for propaganda, as there is with torture. Many people believe they could withstand torture, or concerted brainwashing, or recognize and be uninfluenced by propaganda, whereas almost nobody can.
You can still stream it; just use a modded app like YouTube Music ReVanced to block ads and the artist’s record label won’t get a penny from you.
(Unless of course Google pays royalties by view count rather than ad revenue. Not entirely sure how that works. Just wanted to point out that YTM ReVanced is a thing)
It depends, mostly on yourself and how you feel about it. Most artists have shown some form of shitty behaviour - Dave Grohl cheated on his wife for example. Is that enough to stop listening to his music? Probably not. Kanye West released a song called “Heil Hitler”…is that enough? Probably, but does that also count for his older songs? You decide. No one else can.
I can’t, personally. Same with any art. Kanye can get fucked. Manson can get fucked. Pantera can get fucked. Neil Gaiman can get fucked.
Some are harder to walk away from than others though. Sandman and Death were two of the first comic book characters that I ever got to read complete stories of and not just random back issues. But I’ll never be able to look at another Gaiman creation again without thinking about everything.
Others are easier to leave behind. Bands like Pantera always came across as macho dickheads that beat up kids for listening to heavy metal back in school anyway. So I feel nothing saying nazi metalheads fuck off
What’s the problem with Pantera? I know almost nothing about them aside from an album plus a few singles
Phil Anselmo, singer of Pantera, in 2016:
And seeing that made me feel stupid for never picking up on the white power undertones in their music before. Honestly it’s made me feel something not good about a lot of metal bands in general since, considering that this very year, Metallica, Slayer and Pantera were still happily touring alongside each other as opening acts for Black Sabbath’s 20th final tour.
Thank you. That’s a shame. I was hoping it was one of the newer members of the band, but nope, he joined in the 80s.
Him and fans try to play it off as a joke, but it definitely means something when you keep making the same kinds of jokes and not changing after the first time people tell you it’s terrible
Do a hecking piracy. Problem solved. Personally ripping stuff from YouTube isn’t even illegal.
Yes. It would be necessary to live a modern life, given almost everything we use/eat comes from some unethical source. We abstain from the things that are important to us, according to our values. Lyrically if a song does not itself promote [terrible thing] then the music can be separated from an artist that does.
However if it is important to you that your listening does not generate income for those people, don’t listen to their music in apps (eg Spotify, who pays based on plays), nor on their official YT channels (which are likely monetised).
Also, be mindful that playing/listening to it around others is a form of ‘conspicuous consumption’, one of many ways our actions become ‘Word of Mouth’ advertising. This may lead others to believe you support the artists specifically, and depending on their values, they may be derisive or hostile. (Or, they agree with [terrible thing] and believe you are alike.)
Absolutely. With all forms of art, I feel this is an extension of the Death of the Author concept, in that you separate the art from the artist, and it has less to do with what the artist intended and more to do with your take and interpretation of something, good or bad, and it’s effect and meaning for you.
For example, due to my childhood and lots of past trauma, I harbor some deeply resentful and hateful feelings toward Christians and Christianity in general. However, there are some Christian rock and metal bands I have always loved, and a lot of their music doesn’t always scream religion at me. I appreciate and enjoy some of these still today, despite the fact they ultimately are representing something I detest. The way I enjoy it and what it means to me is different from what they intended.
If they get even a cent from you, then you are funding their crap. Also whatever you don’t like about them will certainly be part of their art. If that doesn’t bother you, then sure, enjoy what you want.
I’ve never felt guilty for consuming media of people who have done bad things; it’s not that it’s not important to have integrity, I just assume everyone I could consume media from has and does, and the difference is that I’ll either never know, or don’t know yet.
We can’t just throw away historical and culturally significant works because the creator(s) are terrible, in part because broken, complicated, terrible people make these works because that’s where the creative energy is.
Yup. It’s very easy indeed.
Pirate the fuck out of their stuff, enjoy, repeat.
Edit: the exception is when the the fuckery is in the music/art.
What’s wrong with Marilyn Manson that wasn’t 20 years ago?
Sure. Just don’t pay. I listen to some very questionable or morally disgusting songs because I like the music. And I personally never care for the author’s life story. I don’t ask who builds my car either.
Explain Manson pls
Of course, just don’t give them money. Unless you’re listening to the musical equivalent of “The Eternal Jew”/“American Sniper”, in which the content was not only made by hateful, possibly hellbound people but is also actively trying to morph your ideology to be more like theirs, what’s the danger?
That’s how I view it too. If you can consume something without financing further harm then the author doesn’t matter. Already own a Niel Gaiman book? Feel free to keep reading it. Pirated some metal music from a band that turned out to be neo-nazis? Go for it. Want to read Lovecraft? He’s long dead and his estate doesn’t seem to be supporting racism, so buy as much as you want. Want to check out Mein Kampf from the library? I will have questions when you return it, but you aren’t hurting anyone by reading it. Just understand the mindset that made them bad people and don’t let them sway your outlook to match.
My mom got me a copy of Mein Kampf when I was little (I asked, I was curious about what this Hitler guy used to yap about) and she never even questioned it, lol. She really had faith in little ol’ me. 😅
